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This episode is not Scott Young’s first appearance on the show. About five years ago, he and James unpacked Scott’s then current book, Ultralearning. And it’s a testimony to the continued relevance of that episode that it remains on the site despite the extensive content pruning James and his team have recently done.
In this catch-up, James invites Scott to discuss his latest title, still on the topic of learning – Get Better at Anything: 12 Maxims for Mastery.
James and Scott will look at the premise of the book, how to get better at anything.
They’ll examine the roles of feedback and coaching as well as problem solving technique in learning.
And they’ll explore how to learn better and faster, drawing on history’s examples and leveraging the culture and advances of today.
Table of contents
1. A book well worth reading
2. Why the best coaches are not the best players
3. A game unmastered for 20 years…
4. Technology + exposure = accelerated learning
5. When information is more accessible…
6. The difference between knowing and not knowing
7. From traditional poker to the online game
8. What people today can learn from the Renaissance
9. The role of feedback and benchmarking
10. Intuition and memory aren’t always trustworthy…
11. The London Blitz lesson on anxiety
12. Exposure applied to selling
13. Different approaches to one topic
A book well worth reading
At time of recording, James has just the night before read Scott’s book. He’s found it incredibly well-researched and engaging, and notable for its extensive references, much like a textbook.
The book delves deep into cognitive science, organizing complex ideas in an accessible and enjoyable way, making it both informative and fun to read.
Scott has structured his book into three main stages, fleshed out with fascinating topics, such as why Tetris players took decades to master the game, why professional poker players make better predictions than psychiatrists, and what the London Blitz teaches about the neuroscience of anxiety.
Get Better at Anything, James believes, is highly practical and relevant, especially for those in the marketing and mentoring fields. James’s fundamental understanding of selling is that people strive to be better off. So there is a huge market of people out there wanting to better themselves.
Why the best coaches are not the best players
An interesting subject in the book is how the best coaches are often not the best players. Tiger Woods, for instance, engaged the coaching skills of people who were not as good at the game as he was.
Coaching requires a different skill set, says Scott. While great players excel in execution, great coaches are masters of observation and improvement. They can step outside of the performance, analyze it, and suggest changes, which is distinct from the ability to perform the skill themselves. This concept is well-illustrated in various sports, where coaches may not have been top athletes but are highly effective in their roles.
James can relate. Similar to having a coach, for a surfer, having a video playback of a ride can reveal details about performance that are not apparent to them during the moment. Some sort of external feedback loop is crucial for improvement. It allows for objective analysis and adjustments, something hard to achieve while actively performing a skill.
A game unmastered for 20 years…
James wants to talk about a video game. For 20 years, people played Tetris. But only recently, new benchmarks are being set by much younger players. It’s an improvement akin to a sudden leap in athletic performance, like children suddenly running a mile in record time.
The key difference now, says Scott, is the environment where players practice. The advent of video sharing and live streaming is allowing for collective learning and innovation. It’s enabled players to learn advanced techniques from others, significantly enhancing their skills.
This phenomenon highlights a deeper aspect of human learning: our ability to learn from cultural exchanges. The collaborative and transparent practice environment has accelerated progress, making a previously unmastered game accessible to new generations.
Technology + exposure = accelerated learning
People learn from other people. This is obvious in children, who want to do everything adults around them do. James has spoken with a parenting director on this topic, and sees it in his own daughter. She makes her own lunch, cutting up fruit in imitation of James, down to the slightest changes in his technique.
Collective practice environments and shared innovations boost people’s ability to acquire skills. So Tetris players improved rapidly once they could learn from each other through videos and live streams.
James has seen the same principle across various activities. In his days of competitive sailing, for example, exposure to other sailors’ techniques during international competitions spurred innovation and improvement.
Platforms like YouTube provide detailed tutorials, enabling users to learn new skills efficiently. By following a YouTube video, James recently did a chrome delete on his car, which could have been challenging without visual guidance.
Technology and exposure are facilitating faster, more effective learning by letting individuals observe and replicate expert techniques.
When information is more accessible…
The accessibility of information has dramatically transformed our society. Scott observes, however, that it can be a double-edged sword. While technology lets individuals become highly skilled, it also offers numerous distractions that can get in the way of actual practice.
The best performers are those who actively utilize the resources at their disposal. Mere exposure to information is not enough; effort and application are crucial.
The information phenomenon also leads to inflation in skill levels, where widespread access to techniques raises the overall standard. Going back to Tetris, in competitions players now routinely achieve high scores that were unattainable two decades ago, raising the bar for excellence significantly.
Despite this competitive shift, Scott believes the cumulative nature of innovation means that society benefits from more efficiency and effectiveness, as people can use shared knowledge to deliver greater value in various fields.
The difference between knowing and not knowing
Learning techniques from, say, a YouTube video, greatly simplifies how one can achieve a desired result. For instance, following a video for James’s chrome delete made the process straightforward, and avoided potential mistakes James could have committed figuring it out himself.
There’s a big difference between knowing a technique and trying to discover it independently.
Scott agrees. Without learning the correct method, one might miss essential steps, like, say, applying multiple coats of paint for a smoother finish. Learning from others can prevent trial and error, which often fails to yield the best solutions.
This can be seen again in games like Tetris, where unconventional techniques have huge impact on one’s score, but are not likely to be discovered through practice alone.
Furthermore, says Scott, if someone does figure out a solution by themselves, they might struggle to generalize it because of the cognitive load involved in problem-solving. He shares his experience with Rubik’s Cubes – random moves would get him some success, but because he wasn’t paying attention he couldn’t apply what he’d done to the whole puzzle.
James’s son, on the other hand, could solve all types of Rubik’s Cubes. He understood the algorithm.
Scott agrees: having a repertoire of moves or methods simplifies problem-solving.
James can relate this to his work, where he provides clients with proven strategies, helping them achieve results without the need for extensive trial and error.
From traditional poker to the online game
James turns to the topic of professional poker and the disruptive impact of online play.
Poker, says Scott, originated in Mississippi riverboat gambling, and was characterized by cunning and deceit. Over time, it evolved into a skill-based game, focused in great part on reading opponents’ psychology.
The advent of online poker shifted the emphasis from interpersonal skills to technical and mathematical analysis.
Online poker, of course, reduces the importance of physical tells and increases the number of games a player can participate in simultaneously. This higher volume of play allows for extensive practice and data collection, letting players refine their strategies with detailed hand histories and computerized analysis.
James compares this evolution in poker to other fields, such as car racing, where skills honed in virtual environments translate to real-world success. One Gran Turismo player, for instance, excelled in racing real race cars. Current top Formula One drivers have likewise benefited from extensive simulator training, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic. Technology and repetitive practice in virtual settings, this shows, can lead to exceptional performance in traditional arenas.
What people today can learn from the Renaissance
What of the Renaissance master painters mentioned in Scott’s book? What lessons can their training methods offer? James has a feeling their rigorous processes might surprise modern shortcut-takers.
During the Renaissance, Scott explains, artistic training followed a guild model where apprentices learned by working under a master painter. They started with small tasks, imitated masterworks, and gradually improved through years of practice and observation – a methodical approach to skill development.
This guild model of learning by imitation and practice was common in skilled crafts and persisted in various forms over centuries. The Renaissance later saw a transition to the academy system, which maintained a focus on technique and mastery before shifting towards creativity and less structured learning. This shift, Scott notes, often led to a lack of fundamental technique instruction in modern art education, resulting in students struggling to develop essential skills.
James and Scott discuss the parallels between historical and modern teaching techniques, stressing the importance of structured learning phases: observation, practice, and feedback. They highlight that while extensive practice is crucial for mastery, it must be guided by proper techniques and feedback to avoid stagnation and ensure continuous improvement.
Scott points out that without the ability to learn from others, individuals can get stuck, inefficiently reinventing solutions and missing out on advanced techniques. Practice, he adds, is essential for making skills automatic and fluid, although it must be done correctly to avoid ingraining bad habits.
There is enduring value in structured learning and a necessity for guidance, practice, and feedback in mastering any skill.
The role of feedback and benchmarking
Effective feedback and benchmarking hone skills and improve performance. In poker, well-calibrated feedback helps players distinguish between winning and losing strategies, as the difference between success and failure can be subtle. Many online poker players overestimate their skills due to lack of immediate feedback, leading to long-term losses despite initial confidence.
This concept extends to other professions, where individuals may build proficiency and confidence without realizing their actual performance due to insufficient feedback. Examples like Mercedes-Benz’s cross-pollination of best practices among dealerships show the importance of benchmarking and reviews. Regularly comparing metrics and identifying performance gaps help organizations and individuals understand their true effectiveness and make necessary improvements.
Intuition and memory aren’t always trustworthy…
Scott speaks of the fallibility of intuition and memory in making judgments, highlighting the importance of data collection for accuracy. Our memory, says Scott, tends to focus on specific instances, which can be misleading, especially in scenarios where outcomes are based on probabilistic events. By relying on aggregated data and statistics, individuals can make more informed decisions, rather than relying solely on their potentially biased recall.
James adds that sample size is crucial for understanding probabilities. One bad experience with a Vendo, for example, for someone who’s never used one, might lead to thinking that vending machines just don’t work. Someone with more experience will have a more accurate take.
This highlights the value of comprehensive data in uncertain domains, reinforcing the need for practice and broader experience to form reliable judgments.
The London Blitz lesson on anxiety
In Scott’s book, the London Blitz was more than a regrettable event in history. Referencing the work of clinical psychologist Stanley Rockman, Scott discusses the Blitz’s lessons on anxiety.
Before World War II, planners predicted mass panic in London due to the new threat of aerial bombings. They fully expected the city’s population to flee and social order to collapse. Despite the terror and devastation of the Blitz, however, the predictions of widespread panic and long-term psychological breakdowns did not materialize.
Instead, the population showed remarkable resilience, and social order was maintained. This phenomenon, observed in other wartime conflicts, suggests that people do not always react to acute stress with panic as expected.
Rockman’s insight, derived from therapeutic contexts, is that repeated exposure to feared situations often reduces anxiety, as individuals learn that the worst outcomes are less likely than anticipated.
Avoidance, on the other hand, maintains high levels of anxiety because it prevents the individual from receiving feedback from the environment disconfirming their fear.
This principle can be applied to various aspects of life. James gives an example of his gradually facing bigger waves in surfing, which reduced his fear over time through repeated exposure.
Exposure applied to selling
Scott is interested in how exposure therapy applies to selling. Like, how uncomfortable are people having to make sales calls?
James observes that many people’s fear of selling stems from negative experiences as buyers, which leads them to view selling as manipulative. By redefining selling as a process where the buyer benefits, James finds that the fear dissipates, making the process enjoyable and meaningful, especially when the product genuinely improves the buyer’s situation.
Scott finds that very valid. He can see two factors working: exposure helps reduce the visceral fear reaction to selling, while reframing the concept can transform negative beliefs. Both unconscious anxiety and negative conceptualizations about selling can create a feedback loop, making it hard to access positive sales experiences. Exposure not only diminishes fear but also allows individuals to see selling in a new light, turning a previously daunting task into an exciting and beneficial activity.
James adds that balancing the focus between potential negative outcomes and positive possibilities is important. He shares an example of a timid friend who, after using one of his playbooks for selling high-ticket items, successfully made a significant sale. This positive experience demonstrated how shifting the perception of selling and using exposure can lead to substantial and rewarding results.
Different approaches to one topic
James wants to know: How would Scott say Get Better at Anything is different from his previous book, Ultralearning?
Scott says the difference is in focusing on environmental changes that enhance learning, rather than on intense, self-directed learning projects undertaken by individuals. While Ultralearning examines specific, high-achieving individuals and their methods, Get Better at Anything explores broader factors, like the story of Tetris players, providing new insights into the ingredients of effective learning.
James appreciates both books, noting that they complement each other and both offer valuable takeaways. He finds that the newer title reinforces the importance of staying updated and innovative, especially in a rapidly changing environment.
James also highlights the practical application of Scott’s insights in his own life. By continually exposing himself to new material and insights from experts, he can offer fresh, relevant content to his audience. He’s found as well that seeking expert advice for strength and conditioning training yields significant results quickly, underscoring again the value of looking to others’ expertise.
Scott’s books have depth and impact, and James encourages him strongly to keep writing. You can find out more about Scott and his latest book on his blog.
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