In the podcast:
01:15 – How James found Brian, and what happened after
04:49 – Proof on proof on proof
06:03 – When you treat your copywriter right…
08:49 – Being the case study guy
11:41 – What Brian does differently
13:26 – Expectations versus results
15:11 – The transformations that happen
16:58 – Why everything is important
18:41 – Where to get a pro
20:38 – What if someone’s just starting out?
22:30 – Brian’s next mission
25:29 – The SuperFastBusiness experience
27:21 – To hire or not to hire?
James: James Schramko here. Welcome back to SuperFastBusiness.com. This is Episode 687, and we’re going to be talking about copywriting with my new friend, Brian McCarthy. Welcome, Brian.
Brian: Hey, James, thanks for having me.
James: It’s my pleasure. It really is, actually. You have a special place in my heart. You’re the most expensive contractor I’ve ever hired. Thank you. And I’m referring of course to the recent help you gave me to update the SuperFastBusiness.com website. So listener, if you’re visiting SuperFastBusiness.com, in the last few months from when you hear this podcast, it was updated with some work that I had got some help from Brian with.
How James found Brian, and what happened after
I’ll just give a little backstory to this. I have been working with Kevin Rogers for many, many years. We’re friends. I’ve been coaching him for at least five years. We built Copy Chief together, and I know he has a – I don’t know what a collection of copywriters is called. Maybe it’s – what do you call a lot of neurotic, crazy people?
Brian: A gaggle…
“It’s more important to have the who and not the how.”
James: A gaggle. In there. And I said to Kevin, “Kevin, who do you recommend for me for my own copy?” Because I either sit down and pull out my copywriting books and refresh and get back into the mindset of it, or I just get help. And I’ve been talking about, you know, it’s more important to have the who and not the how, and so I just bit the bullet.
And I went across to marketingwithbrian.com; Kevin’s referral was to you, Brian. And it’s B-R-I-A-N, not the Y, and marketingwithbrian.com. And I saw that you had a heavy emphasis on case study marketing. And Kevin showed me his pages where you’d actually interviewed his clients and turned them into nice stories that are compelling for people wanting to join Copy Chief.
And there was one line on your page that I think really helped me out. And that was that you like to write non hype-ey sales copy. And I thought, okay, that’s your point of difference from most of the copy I’ve read. And the thing that held me back from having copy from most other people was, firstly, it was sort of within my ability to do reasonable copy, because I’d never actually invested in a copywriter before, you know, since I’d been online in 2005. And secondly, they always seemed to just sort of hype crap up, and it’s not me, it’s not my style. And I’m sure as you spoke to my customers, who are reasonably intermediate and advanced, you would have realized, they’re not the type of customers buying stuff because they can get a quick win or instant riches or because I’ve made some amazing magical promise to them, that they’ll be wealthy beyond their measure by just pushing a button. Did you get a sense of that?
Brian: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. All the people I talked to you in the reviews, when I was doing the research and looked at what people were saying, everyone’s like, what they liked about you is just how real you were. And you don’t have those big, hype-ey promises. And your audience is smart enough to know like, yeah, that stuff usually is just kind of nonsense.
James: Yeah, so initially, when we were talking about pricing, it was quite a lot of money. And I wanted time to digest that. I had to make a decision. It wasn’t even a decision like whether I get Brian or someone else; it was just a decision whether it’s Brian, or I do it. And then what was on my mind was, what’s going to be involved? And as it panned out, I’m absolutely delighted with the fact that I went down that path, because while you were doing the copy, I was doing other things.
So there’s one thing, that’s the opportunity cost. The second thing is the return on investment argument. My only question is, if I invest this amount of money, will I make that amount back in having increased sales over what I would ordinarily make? And Brian, I can happily tell you, the answer is yes.
James: Since we rolled out the copy, it’s been more than two months. And what we’ve found is the conversions have been extraordinarily consistent; I’m getting the best quality of customer; it’s holding at our newer price rates from what we used to sell at. And that’s just purely because I’ve reached the limit of what I can give in terms of private coaching. So I split out to two tiers – there’s a private coaching and a non-private coaching. And I’m like, delivering. Our customers get results, which of course you knew from interviewing them, and the fact that so many of them stay for years.
So the the new copy’s been really well received. It’s causing great inquiries from people who are interested in the coaching; it’s making it easy for them to understand what it actually is they’re buying. I’m finding the onboarding is easier. We’re getting more traction earlier with our customers who come in, because they’ve been set up.
Proof on proof on proof
What you did that was so good, is you helped me package what I sell better than I was able to explain it before. And I think that’s the art of a great copywriter. You’ve segmented my offering into clearly-labeled things. You’ve given absolutely oodles of proof from the homepage to the sales page; there’s even pre-sales pages, sales page, and then even the shopping cart. There’s just proof on proof on proof. Because over the years, I’ve generated so many success stories that we might as well use some of them.
James: I think you mentioned to me at one point, we didn’t even use all the ones we’ve got; there’s plenty more than we did use. Can you explain about that?
Brian: Oh, not even close. Yeah, I mean, we really could only use the best ones, ones that would resonate with, like, where people now, what they’re looking for. But there’s so many more. And honestly, there are some of the bigger ones that I would hold back on. Because sometimes, if you do, like, lay out this big promise, people don’t necessarily believe it. It’s just, it’s too big. It’s too much. So there’s a lot we didn’t use, including, like, a lot of pretty incredible stories that didn’t quite make the page because there’s only room for so many. I mean, going into that project, like, that was one of my obvious, Okay, we definitely need to add proof, because James has so much of it. And it’s a big differentiator, because there’s a lot of other people that claim that they can help and don’t have any of the stats or years of helping people to back it up.
When you treat your copywriter right…
James: And you know, on this topic of why hire a professional copywriter, how important is it in terms of dealing with the customer, like from your point of view of a copywriter, I know the customer is always thinking they’re the center of the universe. And you know, they’re the most important, and it’s their money and their customers and what are they going to get? But I think sometimes they ignore the point of view of the contractor. And I have so much empathy. I think because I’m a coach, I’m always thinking about the other person too. Like, I always try to respond promptly, always pay instantly. I use the work that I’ve commissioned, instead of letting it sit dusty in a corner. How important are those things, as a copywriting contractor? And how much influence would that have in terms of whether you would do future work with that person? And would it also start to bias you a little bit favorably towards that person and help you have an extended relationship in future projects?
Brian: Oh, it’s absolutely huge for having long term relationships, extending the relationships. I mean, having someone like you, that gave me all the information I needed, that would respond quickly, you know, pay on time, it makes such a difference. I think a lot of previous business owners I’ve worked with, they just kind of think, like, all right, well, I’m paying this person, therefore they should just, like, be at my beck and call. And they don’t really have a lot of respect for their contractors or people they are working with, which first of all, it’s like, okay, just treat people well. It’s a good way to live. And absolutely, I mean, especially with the better contractors, like at this point in my career, I’m not just like looking to get the most money or whatever. Like, I want to work with people I’m excited to work with, I want to have long-term relationships. I want to work with people that treat me well. And I’m doing my best to treat them well, too. I want this based on mutual respect. And when you want higher-level people to work with you, that’s what you’re going to need beyond just their price.
James: Well, I think it definitely works. Like, because you were meeting the milestones and because we were syncing together. We established a good rapport, and then it was easy for you to offer me related services around that initial offering, that made sense. And I think you were able to make it an easy decision for me. But it was an easy decision for me because of the evidence of the stuff rolling through.
And I wanted, as much as possible, to use what was delivered without modifying it, to give you the satisfaction of getting the result without it being too blurred. And also, for me to just trust that the professional’s got this and that they know what they’re doing. And you know, aside from very small, minor choices, which are personal choices, like you, I made a choice where I’ll probably make a little less money by not having massive money-back or double-your-money-back type guarantees, because it’s not really my brand to do that. But also I get a really good quality customer who’s operating without a safety net, and we get great results. So that was good.
Being the case study guy
Now, one of the huge things that was obvious to me, once we got started, was the amount of research that goes into this. You had me commission a survey to my audience; you went through my entire forum; you looked for every success story; you interviewed my customers. There’s clearly a lot of upfront work. And it definitely translated through into the final product. It articulated in such a demonstrative way the value that someone gets being a member of SuperFastBusiness. So I also noticed that the case studies are a core pillar of your marketing offering. Is this something you put there by accident? Or did you discover it through someone teaching you? How did you know that case studies were the key?
Brian: You mean the case studies that we mixed in for your marketing? Or do you just mean on my own?
James: I mean, something you offer as a core. It seems to be what you lead with; you’re kind of known as the case study guy. And they were all through the sales page, and they seem to do the heavy lifting. The case studies do a lot of the selling without having to ever put a sales word, because the customer’s an advocate.
“A case study lets you target a person specifically in terms of demographics, in terms of pain, in terms of what they want.”
Brian: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that started, I was working with a client. And we realized like, wait, we have all these absolutely incredible success stories. And we’re not sharing them. Like, what? And it’s so valuable, especially because, you know, anyone has a bunch of different types. You know, you’ve got different types of avatars. Like, for you, there’s the person coming in who initially needs traffic help; someone else needs a business model help. It’s like, they’re looking for something specific. And a case study lets you target, like, that person specifically in terms of demographics, in terms of pain, in terms of what they want. And then helps them see that this transformation is available. They let you be super targeted.
And as I was started doing them for that client, I realized, like, oh, they’re also super fun. Because you get to talk to these people. They’re super excited; they give you all these amazing, like stories, like heartbreaking moments. And you’re just like, Oh, this is phenomenal, I don’t have to do much other than record the information and just put it back out there. And now we can have this incredible story that’s going to be super resonate with a certain type of customer. And then we do this six more times. And now we have like, that’s kind of what we were doing for Kevin, like we were targeting different types of customers when we did different case studies for different people. And that’s pretty much what I do with all my clients.
So yeah, it’s like, the case study shows, when you do it the way I do it, you’re also doing like, you’re teaching through it. So it’s not just, And then they joined and everything’s great. It’s like, Oh, they joined, this is what they learned. This is how they got from A to B to C. You really take them on that journey and let the people see how it’s possible. And then you’ve got a story that’s basically the entire sales argument. You can get your USP in there, you can get, you know, the pains and desires and all that other stuff that makes for great copy. And it just makes life so much easier, and you don’t have to worry about hype or whatever, because you’ve got this killer story.
What Brian does differently
James: And what do you think that you do that’s so different than someone trying to do this themselves? I’ll lead with one giveaway. When I see a lot of videos for people’s sales page or events, I see those sort of vox pop type videos where someone is just coming out of the room, and they’re all hyped up. But there’s absolutely no substance. They’re like, Oh, it was amazing. My brain’s exploded on so many notes; I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna do that. But I just delete those, because they’re useless. They don’t demonstrate a single positive outcome, other than the fact that the person was happy they went to the event, but there’s no transformation yet.
James: That’s like spa bath.
Brian: Yeah, and that’s why I like case studies. If you’re doing them at the live event, like, you can get great stuff.
James: And you helped me with that. You told me what to capture, which we did, and we used on our live event video reel, is a better type of case study. So I’d love you to share the sort of advice you gave me and what people could do. And you shared it with me because it helped you capture some stories that we were also able to use for the membership, because it’s the same customers, luckily.
Brian: Sure. I mean, yeah, some of the things that I really like to focus on is like, what specifically they learned; what they are using or have used; specific results they got. And then, why they decided to go with you over what else is out there. Because then you can really get into, you know, why people trust you?
And also getting like, specific moments. Like, what was the specific moment that caused so much pain that they needed help? Because that’s when things can get really emotional, really resonant. Yeah, it actually paints a picture other than like, Oh, I was struggling to get leads. And there’s specific moments of what they learned that was exciting, and specific moments of the results they got. Because again, that just paints a picture and makes it more real and it brings the viewer or listener into the moment; it helps them feel and experience it for themselves. And then the better they can see it, the more they can see that it’s possible for them, too.
Expectations versus results
How often would you say you do all the research and compile the case studies and look at the material and sit down and prepare a sales letter, and then it goes live, but it doesn’t meet your expectations? Is it rare, or is it common?
Brian: Well, I always have outrageous expectations. “And this is going to convert at 100 percent…”
James: Every single client would have an outrageous expectation. Except for myself, of course, because I’m just such a pragmatist. And I understand that it might take some refinements to hit the mark. But my experience from seeing other people is they’re very unrealistic.
James: Like, they think that good sales copy will fix a shitty product, for example, like the magic salesperson can sell anything. But of course, you want to stack the odds in your favor as a copywriting expert and only work with products that are actually good, right?
Brian: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, that’s a big part of it. I do a sales page or a copy or whatever, but it’s for an offer that isn’t proven. Like, I’ve kind of just stopped writing for new offers, because it’s like, there’s just a lot of risk. And if it doesn’t work, we don’t know what the problem is. Or even if there’s no like, normal sort of audience, like they’re figuring out what audience to get. It’s like, if the audience isn’t proven, the offer isn’t proven, and…
James: It’s kind of a fundamental, isn’t it?
James: If you don’t even know your market, that’s like, what could you possibly work with? You have a dart board in your office? Random market segments and say, just go with whatever it lands on?
James: That is interesting. I mean, I do the same, and you would be aware of that. I don’t really do startups. I work with people who are already in motion, because I don’t want to steer a parked car. You know, the more they bring to the table, the better, and the more we can work with.
The transformations that happen
What sort of transformations do you often see? Like with mine, I think it’s fair to say that the rejuvenated copy, which, and I must say, it coincided with a new design and some new photography, but that was all intentional, and I’d say they all contributed. But in order, I’d say the market’s probably the most important thing, which I already had. The copy, like the actual words, probably the second most important thing. And then the third most important thing might be the way that it’s designed. And you helped me, and the designer helped me. The two of you working together to tune the the end result, because we sort of put it all there at the same time. But it most definitely improved our conversions and it improved the quality of the client that we’re getting, and it made the onboarding and the framing of what we’re selling easier. So I had less interpretation to have to do after someone joined. I could see a direct result, and over time, it’s proving out as we scale the membership. It hasn’t missed a beat. It’s super consistent, too. That’s the other thing, is it’s just synced perfectly with our front-end content. So it’s married up to our videos and podcasts, and it just flows nicely. And I’m very, very happy with it.
What sort of results do you normally see when you upload new copy? Does it really depend on how bad it was to start with?
Brian: Yeah. I mean, if the page was really bad, then it can be pretty easy to see big conversions pretty quickly.
James: I knew my stuff was pretty average. Because I have a strong front-end, I was getting away with less than adequate copy, and then picking them up with a strong cart abandonment sequence, which I also teach my members. Like, if you can have the really strong front and a really strong back, then the middle was the weakest link in my case. By bolstering that, it’s just hit the accelerator now.
Why everything is important
So I guess there’s a few pieces. Even when we were doing the sales page, we realized we needed to address the pages leading to the sales page to keep it all consistent. And so can you speak to that? Like how much of a campaign should we be considering? Because there’s the emails as well, that many people don’t have, and I feel that was quite strong. And my pre-framing was strong. From the homepage to the pre-sale page to the order page to the cart page, these are all things that need tuning.
Brian: Yeah. And it’s super important to think of like, it’s not just the sales pages. Okay, how are they getting to this? Like, I went through your welcome sequence, I’m like, how does this make sense for what they just read an email to now they’re here? Or if they’re going from their homepage, your homepage has that awesome bucketing. So we’re like, okay, we can’t just have them go from this bucket to all go to the same sales page. We’ve got to have that buffer, which is going to call out really what they’re looking for, and then guide it into, this is what you want. And then this is why this coaching offer makes sense for that specifically.
James: Exactly. So you’ve got to basically hand the baton on from the story. Like, even from the first ad through to whatever they get, to the emails to the page, it all has to flow seamlessly. And that’s why…
Brian: All got to be congruent. Yeah.
James: And you know, whoever’s in-charge with the copywriting on the sales page, you know, unless they’re briefed or aware of or researching or involved with any other part of the funnel, if they’re doing it in isolation, it could be really risky, that there’s a huge disconnect, or that you’re not going to optimize the results.
Brian: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can’t just sort of write a piece of copy in a vacuum; you’ve got to know everything. That’s why I was doing so much research earlier. So you got to know everything about the audience and the product, and how it fits into the sequence and the journey that the customer’s on.
James: I’m going to ask you a couple of questions that I get asked all the time, just to save me answering them after this podcast goes live and then getting an email.
Where to get a pro
Brian, where does someone find a professional copywriter?
Brian: I would go to copychief.com. Generally, if I get leads or referrals that I don’t have time for, I just post that up in Copy Chief. And, you know, you sent me somebody that I wasn’t able to help, so I just posted their description in Copy Chief and got like 12 replies that day. It ended so quickly. It was like, Okay, sorry, we’re all set, guys.
James: Yeah, that’s pretty cool. I found you through Kevin, through Copy Chief. And I trust Kevin, because I know that he’s a good copywriter. And he knows me very well, because we’ve been working together. So referrals are always amazing. And obviously people are always asking me, James, where do you get them? The first thing I say is, Well, it’s not going to be cheap. However, if you get a good one it will be worth it. Because I think some people are running around with sort of a bit of a budget in mind. Like some people might have $500 to throw at copy. What sort of copy will they get for 500?
Brian: Depends what they’re looking for. I mean, that could get you a really good email or a really bad sales page.
James: Right. So it depends on a few factors. I know that many copywriters are going to charge a few thousand dollars as a starting point. And then it goes up from there, of course. 10, 15, 20, 25, 30. What are some of the higher copywriting fees that you’re aware of? Because you circulate in the industry.
Brian: Yeah, I mean, there’s like, sales pages. I know some guys that are doing like, you know, 25 grand plus royalties, or even up to 50. Yeah, it can get pretty crazy.
James: But I guess, you know, it’s worth it. Some of these people would make 50 grand in sales in a day.
Brian: Yeah, if you got crazy – what do you call it? If you’re doing a ton of sales every day, and we’re a 50 grand, paying that much and getting a, you know, a 1 percent bump conversion can start to bring an extra, like, hundred grand in a month or whatever it is. Like yeah, that can totally be worth it. It’s worth it if you have high volume, proven products and a strong back end, you know your customer value and stuff like that.
James: I think the real challenge is that chicken and egg. Until you have an offer that converts, you don’t have the money to invest in the supplier to boost your business.
What if someone’s just starting out?
James: So, what if someone’s at the very early stages? I hate this question, by the way, when people ask me, because I don’t want to work with that market by choice. It’s just too hard, and there’s too many unknowns. If someone is starting out, do you have a good resource or book you’d recommend? They join Copy Chief, those sort of things?
Brian: Yeah, I mean, I definitely recommend Copy Chief. And if you’re just starting out, like, then you could be fine just getting a newer copywriter who’s just like, you know, they’ve done the homework and they’re just hungry. Or you can hire a coach, write it yourself and just have them go over it and help you tweak it and refine it. Because it just doesn’t really make that much sense to put a bunch of money into copy if you’re still working on your audience and offer.
James: What was your favorite training when you came through?
Brian: My favorite training? John Carlton‘s Simple Writing System.
Brian: That was a big one for me.
James: That name sounds familiar.
Brian: Yeah, he’s been around, apparently. Yeah. That’s the one that gave me a ton of confidence and was like, Okay, now I can just fall back if I don’t know what to write for a sales letter, like, I’ll just follow his little system. So that was great.
James: I’ve got his folder in my top drawer here. You know, it was basically down to hiring you or pulling out that folder, and brushing up again. But I know that takes quite a lot of time to get mastery, and I’m at a level of business where my time can be well spent on other things. John Carlton. Just if you’re listening to this, and you didn’t pick up on my banter, John Carlton is episode number one on the SuperFastBusiness podcast, from 2009. Well worth a listen. One thing about copywriting is the fundamentals don’t really change, no matter whether the technology does. But the same core principles have been probably applied for hundreds of years.
Brian: Yeah, totally. That’s why I mean, if I was to recommend a book, it’d probably be How to Write a Good Advertisement. I think that’s a really good, one for just getting started off. It’s super old, but still, one that’s worth revisiting a lot. And it’s got sort of like action steps at the end that can help you actually apply what you’re learning.
Brian’s next mission
James: Oh, that is a wonderful tip. So where to from here? I’m curious, what’s your next mission, Brian, now that we’ve done our job?
Brian: My next mission is really focusing on the case studies. Just helping people create case studies for their business, then finding all the ways that they can mix it in. You know, if you get a welcome sequence, that’s really just case study driven. Doing Facebook retargeting… There’s a lot of ways to use them. And it’s, it’s such a just simple way that people don’t think to use but it’s your strongest piece of marketing, really, because it tells the whole story. And it’s got built-in proof.
James: I love it.
Brian: So really help helping people with, you know, launches, onboarding sequences that are based around case studies, instead of exhaustive copy.
“Don’t try and sell stuff until you’ve got at least a success story.”
James: Clearly, it separates the pretenders and the “fake it till you make it” from the people who are actual practitioners. Some people say, Well, I haven’t got a success story yet. I say, go out and get one. Like, work for free, or even have your own business as a success story. Like, don’t try and sell stuff until you’ve got at least a success story. But once you do, document it and publish it. It’s a lot like the test drive, when I was in Mercedes-Benz, when you have someone drove the car, they’re more likely to buy it, because the proof is in the doing. And if you’ve got success stories, and you’ve been able to achieve transformations for people, and you can document it, and if you can articulate it correctly, which is what I got help from Brian, you will find your life becomes easier. You don’t have to ever hustle or hard sell or hype, because the customers are there. I mean, the prospects could literally reach out and speak with a real customer of yours and validate that success.
And of course, one little byproduct that I’ve noticed is, when you interview your customers and get the success stories, it kind of reinforces in their mind the transformation they had and at seems to generate more referrals.
James: I got a lot of referrals right now in my inbox, from existing customers, who were just fans, and maybe some of them have sort of been a little bit reactivated by the little survey we did, or appearing on the sales page. It’s kind of a nice thing a customer can do if they’re really happy with the way that they got a result. Like I am, doing this podcast, because I’m happy with what you did with us. You know, I’m happy to share it because sure enough, people ask me all the time for, who do I recommend? You know, of course, marketingwithbrian.com is a great place to go and get the top-shelf solution, if you just want to go straight for the gold. That’s what I did.
Brian: Awesome. Yeah. Thanks very much. And yeah, one other thing, just to tack on to what you’re just saying, especially for membership sites, case studies can be super powerful, because you’re showing like, it gives them a kind of FOMO, of like, oh, this is what everyone else is doing. This is how everyone else is using the material in there. And I’ve kind of been dragging my feet in the past five months; like, it can be inspiring. I’m a member of some other membership sites, and I hear those stories. And I’m like, man, I’ve got to use those templates. So it can be, I mean, you can use it for like, you know, attracting leads, just customer retention, closing sales. You can really slip them into any part of your current funnel, and you can see a boost pretty quickly.
The SuperFastBusiness experience
James: Well, as part of your research, you became a member of SuperFastBusiness. And I’m just curious, since you are a member of some other communities, what’s your sense of the general vibe of the people we have and the trainings we do and the way it works?
Brian: Yeah, like, the people in there are super cool. Like, they’re just very positive and yeah, they’re all in it and doing stuff. It’s not like, you know, some other communities can sometimes just have like the, you know, oh, no, I’m lost. What am I doing with my life? kind of stuff. But like, there’s really good questions, there’s really good answers. And stuff, like incredible stuff comes out of nowhere. Like, I remember searching through and all of a sudden, there’s this guy who was talking about how he got a million YouTube subscribers. It’s like, wait, what? And he’s just breaking it down and sharing it or whatever. Like, I don’t know exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And I was just like, oh! And this isn’t even the awesome trainings that you do that are like, Oh, yeah, here’s the stuff I do in my business. This is kind of just stuff that’s on the side that can help people explode their business and are super awesome. And the people in there are just really high level, just really got their stuff together and are just in there doing it. So it was really cool to be able to talk with them and learn more.
James: Yeah. Most of the reason I can keep my finger on the pulse is because of the members. With the amount of members in there, hundreds and hundreds of members sharing the best thing they’ve seen or the best thing they’ve used, the resource mining is phenomenal. I always see things in SuperFastBusiness first, and then I’ll see it on Facebook a day later or a few days later. Like, it’s the central hub, the collective brain of resource sharing. And they are all of a certain type, which I like, and I’m very happy to be around. That’s why I can do it for 10 years, because they’ve become a big part of my life. I log in every day, and do my rounds, answer questions, keep peace. I love it.
To hire or not to hire?
Brian, let’s wrap up with a final piece of parting advice. If someone’s considering whether they should hire a professional copywriter, what would be some of the things on your little filter, your checklist of, you know, things that would help tip you either way, as to a yes or a no?
Brian: If they have a proven offer, if they have an audience, if they have existing copy, a lot of times, that’s a great sign for me, if I can just come in and make something better, which usually just involves a lot of like, rewriting completely. But if they already have, like, something going out, and it’s just like, Okay, we’ve got this thing and it’s kind of working, but this product’s awesome, we’re getting amazing results, and we just want to crank this thing to 11, like, that’s when I’m like, okay, let’s do this. And actually, they’ve got to like, really care, too. Because if they’re just like, Oh, I’m selling this thing, because that’s what will make me money right now, it’s hard for me to get behind it.
James: Perfect. And plus, if you have a high value of activities that you could be doing, instead of studying your copywriting books, maybe go and do that. Like if your effective hourly rate in whatever else you do is high, it starts to make a lot more sense to invest in a copywriter.
Brian: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, like you were saying, you could have spent all that time writing the copy and you would have done a great job. Or you hand it off to me and that lets you, you know, business owners have a zillion things to do. I don’t know about you, you spent a lot of time surfing and got things pretty leveraged. But I know a lot of other entrepreneurs, you know, who have other things.
James: I’m pretty much certain that what you delivered was better than what I would have ended up with. And I do have a strong background in selling, but you’ve got a stronger background in copywriting for the web. And that’s one of the hardest things to give up, is stuff you’re actually good at. And that’s why it was a great learning experience for me, and a wonderful experience as well. So Brian, thank you so much for coming and sharing and for helping me out with SuperFastBusiness.
If you want to see Brian’s handiwork, go to jamesschramko.com. Click through the menu and choose the right options for you. And if you feel compelled to join, you’ll know why. And if you need some help for yourself, check out Brian’s website, marketingwithbrian.com. And this is Episode 687. Thanks, Brian.
Brian: Awesome. Thanks very much.
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